The K's In Point
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by www.kingstonian.com27/6/2023 09:36Tue Jun 27 09:36:48 2023
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Supporters Club Facebook Page
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regular visitors here will know that certain people from the Supporters Club no longer post on this forum. over on the Facebook page some new rules have been published (albeit published onto the Football Club's website - despite being told of the mitigations - again bringing into question the independence of the Supporters Club). There's lots of great people involved in the Supporters Club doing great things. But the entity itself is in a dire position IMO
I've joined the SC. it costs £5 a year, and without paying it seemingly there's a right to not answer fans questions. Lots of the newly published rules make a lot of sense. But some are really backward at a time the club is in existential crisis.
I won't link to the club website because scabs etc but the facebook page where Supporters Club committee will answer questions is at https://www.facebook.com/groups/kingstoniansc
Edited by jon tolley at 09:29:38 on 13th July 2023
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5 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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I get directed to the Football Web Pages site not the Supporters Club.
Edited by BE at 10:29:50 on 13th July 2023
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1 person
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1657
Same here I'm redirected to the wrong page. Back in the early 70's I was assistant secretary to John Harding in the supporters club. In those days the supporters club was separate to the football club but I think the status quo has changed and not in a good way. I have not renewed my membership, yet. Lets have some clarity from those in charge.
Keith.
Why worry, be happy.
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9 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1759
The good old supporters club taking orders from their masters on the board!
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5 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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This is directed generally to any that have expressed views on this topic. No one , as far as I can see, has explained what the objective is, what they expect to see as the solution .The supporters club Facebook group has over 200 members but only a handful have been bothered to comment . Similarly the supporters club have over 100 members and I expect the committee must try and gauge the views of the many that remain silent. I don’t think it’s as black and white as some make out
As I have said previously the club has to have people working together with the board being proactive and my view is that the hostility of some (not necessarily saying their views are wrong) is counter productive.
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2 people 2 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1602
How simple life used to be when my old Dad took me to Richmond Road.
The queue to get in and the match day programme was all that really troubled us then the half time cup of tea in the chipped mug.
The only other thing was to book the coach for the next away game if Dad wasn't working.
How simple life was.
In more modern times at Kingsmeadow where I was active with the Supporters Club we were there for match day help where needed to raise funds for the team or managers needs and of coarse coach travel to away games .
Social functions too came within our remit but all to help the club financialy.
Great fun but hard work and always a pleasure but where has it gone wrong so wrong so very wrong.We were never in the pockets of anyone let alone the Board and always remained active giving a service to the supporters by way of coaches and fund raising for the good of the club.
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8 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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What is the vision of how this is going to pan out?
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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I wish the board would answer this question.
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5 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1500
At the moment it appears no one has the answer and without it any alternative than everyone working together as mentioned in my previous post won’t bode well.So before leading people down an alternative path you need to assure them that that alternative path will be for the better and what that vision is.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1570
tbh, if the vision is not to pay at The Athletics, no pragmatic action of playing near to Kingston, and the vision is not to take six-figure investment from current fans.
then the only future is to hope for miracles during a managed decline.
ANYWAY, I only came on here to find the fixtures.
Edited by jon tolley at 19:02:33 on 13th July 2023
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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Jon, another non answer. You have made views even on the Facebook page criticising the comments of the supporters club on the comment about Walton Casuals. In an earlier post you have said you withdraw you interest in the KBH. If you are going to continue making the statements you do then logic tells me that you have an aim that is for the benefit of the football club. I just don’t get it I just don’t think animosity is the right way. I have a lot of admiration for many of the 13 KBH people and what they have done in the past so disappointed with the comments made recently. I am giving every opportunity to answer the question that I have previously posted.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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1. We proposed £30,000 a year in additional investment both to support a groundshare closer to Kingston (even if it meant Southern League) and running costs.
2. Our vision was that the Womble money should NOT be drawn down upon for routine budget support until a clear path to a new ground was established. We, and all K's fans, should be highly concerned that the money is now down to £720 000.
3. We invited the Board not to seek to reclaim their loans in the event of cash injections (FA Cup money/player sales/new investors) - again, at least until a clear path to a new ground was established.
4. With these principles and foundations in place, we proposed new ways of operating the club, developing its marketing and media and restoring relations between Board and fans.
5. Our vision was for fan representation on the Board bridging to fan ownership.
6. We think K's could be dead in 5 years (even some of the SC share that fear). We presented practical and financial steps forward, even in the context of uncertainty over a permanent home.
We had a plan. No guarantees it would have worked. But we had a plan. We had funds. We had people. We had good faith and we had the will.
What do the Board have?
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9 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1435
Interestingly, £30k per season is quite an investment. When I was invited to become a director the cost was £7k per season. I’m guessing that must’ve been 2010/11 or something. Even allowing for inflation £30k should buy a few places on the board shouldn’t it?
Absolutely bonkers that the KBH offer was dismissed in such a disdainful fashion.
When I started coming to Ks we competed with Sutton Utd…now they’re in the football league and we’re going up $#}¥ Creek without a paddle.
Edited by JohnnyD at 22:28:55 on 15th July 2023
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12 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1203
WANDLE CREEK.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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Yes it’s interesting isn’t it John.
I’ve been told that in some other places (I’m not on Facebook, like most people under 50) and in some face to face chats this £30k a year offer has been dismissed as a bluff.
I’ve no idea why. It was deeply serious. And about 15 minutes of googling would mean anyone could understand how a group of 13 people could get to that number without big trouble.
I think this is all part of the “inexperienced young chaps” rubbish, despite the basic fact that KBH members have achieved a huge amount more in business and professional life than our most active director and our newest director.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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Absolutely!! And I suspect that a few more grand could easily be raised by KBH from those who support their offer.
Crazy non-decision by the board who claim to have the club’s best interests at heart
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1 person
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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See my answer below . What is the position now not then. Jon has withdrawn from the zkBH and no evidence it remains a credible option???
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1559
Maybe we're at cross-purposes. I don't understand. You're asking a group which came up with a credible plan to come up with another one?
Ok, here's mine: the current Board has eroded the AFC money, taken Ks to Mitcham for the medium term, made shockingly bad decisions for at least the last three years, is being dominated by Yiorgios who has no track record of anything at Ks except managing decline, refused to admit mistakes or make any changes let alone transition new ownership. The board should go and let others (it doesn't even need to be "us") try. No one and nothing would be worse than the situation in the summer of 2023.
The plan: cease support for the board, cease volunteering because it gives the board succour and credibility, cease buying season tickets, cease giving the benefit of the doubt, work with other Ks fans within or outside the Supporters Club to hold the Board to account and ensure transparency over what's left of the AFC money, go to Lewes away.
It's time to realise this is terminal.
What i think is NOT an option is 1) hoping everything will be OK and 2) presenting the current board as the only and best way for Ks to be run.
To be clear: anyone involved with Ks is going to face the challenge of finding a permanent home. The question is: do you trust this lot to do it before the £700 000 (and half the fanbase) is gone?
Edited by WeHateWombles at 20:49:49 on 13th July 2023
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1503
I am just going to pick up on one thing. Though I have a financial background I am not an accountant but understand in the group of 13 there are one or more accountants. They can put forward a case for my assumption to be wrong.
What I understand is the AFC money is ring fenced and there appears on the accounts as a credit. On the debit side there will be money owing I don’t know who to but let’s say directors loans. So if the AFC moneywas £900k ( let’s not discuss what it actually is just use this figure for this example) and the directors loans were £100k then net balance £800 k on accounts. The next year the only difference is directors loans £150k so the balance on books is £750k. This leads to one of two assumptions a) if the club ceases to trade the directors get their money back and the AFC money has reduced or b) the AFC monkey is ringfenced and stays the same and the directors Don’t get their money back.
My view is b) if the money is ring fenced and that applies to whoever the debtors are. Can you ask one of your accounting gurus as to whether my assumption is right? If so perhaps we can detract the claim thatthe AFC money is dwindling.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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1. The money is controlled by AFC via an account. It is released on an annual basis for the purposes of paying for groundshare, ground development (lol) and, and to a limited but never specified extent, "budget support". Nothing i have just written is controversial. Ask John Fenwick. Read the Dons Trust and Samuelson reports which repeatedly state that the money will either be used to build a new ground or ensure "30 years of renting".
2. So groundshares since we left Kingsmeadow have been paid for by the AFC money. £30 000 a year to Casuals, £20 000 a year to Tooting and so on. And additional money has been drawn down from the £1m pot.
3. So it's not ring-fenced/competely protected in the way people might think. Nor do the Board have total access to it.
4. But it enables the board to sign groundshares without much care for whether income drops because, well, the AFC money covers the costs. It also allows the Board to use any additional income to pay back their loans (eg. £200 000 in fa cup and transfer money has, it seems, gone straight to the Directors - fair enough, you might say, they loaned the money in the first place - but it's not that simple: they're showing no interest in long-term financial stability, they are now putting nothing in and yet still assert their right to run the club into decline).
5. If the Kingstonian FC Ltd ceases to trade, the remaining womble money reverts to AFC.
6. The current board has every incentive to carry on, erode the pot and hope for the best. If a new ground is magicked up by a miracle, then they have a football club that has an asset and is worth something. And in the meantime, Bryant could play for Boro and they can pocket the appearance fee/repay a portion of their loans. If a new ground never transpires, well, that's fine too: they "tried their best", the Womble money goes on rent until 2035 and then Ks folds.
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7 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1456
Thanks for that detailed explanation. I am not in a position to comment without studying further.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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Peter have you seen any document or contract that confirms the money is indeed ring fenced?
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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No but sure somewhere it was mentioned it was ringfenced but Taimour has given an explanation
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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I can’t give you any more of an honest answer
There’s a route which involves pragmatism and a root which involves mere hope.
it absolutely is existential
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1489
When Russia invaded Ukraine the objective was to replace the Ukrainian government with a Russian friendly government. Using that what is your objective. because you still haven’t answered. Having read you last quote maybe others understand what you are trying to say and can translate but to me it’s abstract nonsense
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1 person
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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i honestly don't how much more concrete and transparent we can be. We were offering money, people and time to try to save K's. We think K's could still be saved. But this Board is killing the club.
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4 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1429
The issue is that Jon has withdrawn from the KBH as per a previous post so I assume that the KBH isn’t in the same position when they made their last offer to the board. Are you telling everyone here that the KBH is supported by all 13 and the position remains unchanged then that’s a different story.
but
If not my question still stands and unanswered. I don’t think you can use a past now non option as a continued argument
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2 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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I genuinely have no idea what point you’re trying to make. I’ve tried, but I just don’t have any idea what you’re getting at.
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2 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1480
I'm in the same boat. Not sure what point he's making at all. Just because they have withdrawn their offer it doesn't absolve the board of any (rightful and correct) criticism. We all know that Anderson did not get us into the mess when he stepped in with the then board, but the additions of divisive figures, treating the fans with contempt, lack of communication, the amount of fans no longer attending and seemingly sleepwalking into oblivion has rightfully pissed a lot of people off.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1475
I am not defending the board I am trying to understand that the tactics employed is going to achieve what??? So what is the animosity angle, criticism the supporters club going to achieve? I think it’s the wrong route. Using the KBH as the potential saviours when Jon has withdrawn his support is out of date. So what is it going to achieve , what is the objective? To me no one has said how the current tactics are going to pan out .
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1332
Are you actually saying that the supporters have no right to ask the board for accountability just because there’s no alternative. Your posts really infer that we should back the board, no matter how bad, just because KBH, or anyone else, are no longer a viable option.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1127
In all fairness I'm actually happy that he is so inquisitive for 2 reasons:
1. After the SC decided that they'd rather take the L on Facebook instead of this forum, he is generating conversation with debate which is healthy.
2. Every time this comes up & it is debated, with every post I read & every additional detail that I either missed or was unaware of it gives me more respect for the KBH guys as well as all the like-minded supporters.
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2 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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No I am not saying that
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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Ks needs to change. The way it is run needs to change. The board won't sell. They won't hand it over to fans. They won't clear the debts. They won't change their ways. So they need to go. That's what fans should unite behind. For years people have said "oh no, ks would be extinct if this board walked away" and the board liked that sentiment. But we're going extinct. It's happening. On their watch.
The arguments among fans are really defined by how bad you think things are and how urgent and whether you have any faith left in the Board.
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Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1481
Peter you come across as an intelligent guy. A lot of information was contained in the KBH posts previously, I wasn’t part of the KBH bid or even aware of it but I certainly support it.
It was clear to me this would only be the beginning and paved the way for fan ownership models, something the board promised to revisit when the previous scheme was rejected by fans. That was in 2016, 7 years on and the board have now dragged the club into position where our future looks bleak and we as fans cannot allow them to do so any longer.
The fact is, the KBH bid contained more information around moving the club forward than we have ever received or will every receive from this shambles of a board.
They need to do the decent thing and hand the club over whilst we still have respect for them as people.
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5 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1462
Take your points. What I have said earlier is that Jon posted on the forum that he is no longer a participant in the KBH proposal which, unfortunately, weakens it. As I said some time ago when their interest was not moving forward they should have regrouped , built up a stronger base and setup. Instead , at this point in time , they have , at best, put themselves in mothballs. I aslso think, which May disagree with some that the best way forward is everyone working together including the board. I had hoped to encourage people to that view including the board to be proactive. That is my view and I respect that others may disagree but I put forward my case in a good spirit. though may press my points.
I will say that the criticsism of the supporters clubb committee is a bit strong. I don’t think they are in cahoots with the board except on issues of community projects I.e young careers etc where there has to be liaison. Yes, ask questions , disagree but let’s keep a good spirit.
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3 people 1 person
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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I don’t think they are in cahoots with the board
One committee member is married to a board member
The chair of the SC has a seat at board meetings
When the news of the KBH bid was released a number of SC committee members were very critical of this and belittled them. Yet no criticism the following week of the appointment of a new board member.
Valid criticism of the board has been defended at every opportunity by the supporters club yet the criticisms are from those who care and are worried about the club’s existence.
Things need to change
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6 people
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
Views: 1345
Excellent post Phil
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1 person
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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Can I just say KBH wasn't just Jon
As much as I have a lot of time for him and he has a lot of time for KS this whole concept doesn't just rest on his shoulders.
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1 person
Re: Supporters Club Facebook Page
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Bit of a journey for those of us coming from Mitcham way. Hope it goes well for those who can attend.
Let’s stay positive K’s fans!
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