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Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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For details of a recent meeting with Mark Anderson please see kingstonian.net/kbh/february-2024-update.htm.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Coming out of a.meeting with.Anfetson you need to count your fingers.
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Transparency
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For those on twitter
A thread by the Accrington chair on the financial difficulties they’re in
Often transparency gives you some slack from your critics
https://x.com/andyhholt/status/1759543916209053872?s=46&t=ZlcOUA7-qRBp-Lk_9Id_cw
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Neither witty or imaginative to have one
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Barnet
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Exile ending too
Moving back to South Underhill - presumably by the old ground which is now housing - includes multi purpose pitches too
So things are possible if you push yourself and work with interested parties
https://www.barnetfc.com/chairmans-statement
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Neither witty or imaginative to have one
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Re: Barnet
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Wonder if Wealdstone will take their ground over and start playing in the right borough too.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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https://comeonuks.wordpress.com/2024/02/17/the-wombles-money/
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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The club is under new management. There has effectively been a take over by Vasilaras and his pals. The people who have run the club for the last 18 years have moved away.
He says they won’t spend the AFC blood money on playing budget so the first thing he has done is cut the budget presumably to the bone given our lack of income.
Anderson referred to this new group as being investors so perhaps that investment will come next year as this year is a write off.
One important point is he acknowledges a supporters organisation could take a shareholding - I would be inclined to take that trick off the table, set up a supporters trust and get some shares.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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1. He has said the Wombles money is down to £660,00.
2. "He says they won’t spend the AFC blood money on playing budget " - only because they can't. that aspect of the agreement ended this year.
3. He says £40,000 per season is a "small amount"
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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What’s that got to do with the idea of a supporters trust taking at least some shares to which the new management is open?
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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The Supporters Club Committee has started work on plans for a Supporters Trust and I do personally agree that it makes good sense to take this forward, particularly as there was an apparent willingness to encourage investment by fans on the part of the new owners.
Yesterday evening, we also heard positive commitments to improve communication with fans and I think will need to test this out by helping to arrange further and regular dialogue with supporters.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Yesterday evening, we also heard positive commitments to improve communication with fans and I think will need to test this out by helping to arrange further and regular dialogue with supporters.
9 months on, how are these commitments going?
If we're entering a period where we may be forced to fund (with the AFC money?) another club's ground is this something that would be good to discuss with fans?
Or is it Yiorg's club, not ours?
Edited by irishk at 22:41:19 on 19th November 2024
Edited by irishk at 22:43:30 on 19th November 2024
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Agree, John - thanks to the new chairman for agreeing to meet with fans on a 6/8 week basis.
It felt like we barely scratched the surface, having gone 18 months with nothing from the Club and suddenly in the space of around five minutes we learned about:
- The new board
- The Club accepting relegation
- Admission of the use of the AFC money on playing budget
On the AFC money, if the KBH version of events is accurate it doesn't really stack up with what was said last night.
- When Michael Cox asked his second question re. % of the AFC money spent on wages, the chairman said "around 10%". £40k per year is clearly a lot more than 10%.
- The new Chairman gave the impression that it is a decision of the new regime not to use AFC money on playing budget. KBH are saying they don't have a choice.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Agree, John - thanks to the new chairman for agreeing to meet with fans on a 6/8 week basis.
It felt like we barely scratched the surface, having gone 18 months with nothing from the Club and suddenly in the space of around five minutes we learned about:
- The new board
- The Club accepting relegation
- Admission of the use of the AFC money on playing budget
On the AFC money, if the KBH version of events is accurate it doesn't really stack up with what was said last night.
- When Michael Cox asked his second question re. % of the AFC money spent on wages, the chairman said "around 10%". £40k per year is clearly a lot more than 10%.
- The new Chairman gave the impression that it is a decision of the new regime not to use AFC money on playing budget. KBH are saying they don't have a choice.
It’s been eight weeks now. We’ve had nothing. It was a simple (if unimpressive) target to communicate with the fans once every 6-8 weeks.
He claims he loves the club and is a supporter just like us yet he has lied to our faces. It’s insulting. Pure gaslighting.
That night was clearly just a PR exercise. He promised a new start and asked us to move on from the past. Instead he has demonstrated already (as many thought) he is part of the problem, not the solution.
No written account from the night, no update re. steps, no accountability.
If he can’t keep the most basic of promises with fans do we really think he has it in him to secure K’s a long-term ground/future?
Time to re-visit the KBH offer (if it’s still there), before it’s too late.
Change now.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Time to re-visit the KBH offer (if it’s still there), before it’s too late.
He did say that at the forum when speaking to Jon, but I supsect that he's been waiting for KBH to contact him.
It has to be the other way around given how things progressed.
Paul
Southampton K
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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That's a point the club accepting relegation,I don't think so,there are still 30 points to play for ,it was a good result Saturday,go again fight it out ,try to stay in the premier div, never give up.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I think the problem is Korky, that the ground we are playing at next season doesn’t have a Premier Division grading so, even if we avoid relegation, we may be relegated anyway as we don’t have a suitable ground.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I hope we can do what appears impossible and escape mate but if we do the wider picture would be as from next season our new and grateful to them would not have the ground grading to do so.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I agree the possibility of promotion is not in the new regimes remit,they will be happy to play with a smaller budget on an inferior ground ,how the mighty KS have fallen,the life sucked out the last 20 years by Anderson Winwright and Fenwick, yougos is playing his part as the fall guy for them and oblivion may not be too far away.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Unfortunately mate I have had that assumption for sometime now the end of our famous old club is near as we are now.The only way forward I fear is to start a phoenix club and start from scratch with people who really care much lower down the leagues.Mind you mate the way the club is going we going down the leagues anyways.The way forward is to try get an insight from Walton & Hersham etc.and see how should be done.In their short time how they have improved the club and support is only short of miraculous in my mind.The only problem would be again would be the non existence of our own ground. Kingsmeadow with a 3g pitch would have helped with the costs of the ground..We can only dream I suppose mate.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Even Walton and Her sham have troubles.,I hear they are packing up at the end of the season.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Yes, while most of the evening was positive in terms of openness and wanting further communication, I do think we need a more specific, complete answer about the Wombles money and how much of it has been spent upon playing budget.
There are elements of 'let's not go over the past' that apply, but not this. This was our biggest asset and we were repeatedly told it was only going to be spent on ground-related things, not player wages.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I understand your frustration about this, and it would seem legitimate to ask for further clarification. Certainly in the last few years, a misleading picture was painted about use of the money from AFC. Unfortunately though, what ever further we discover, this will not materially change the challenges the club faces. In that sense, I think the new owners are right in saying that we need to focus primarily on the future.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I totally agree John.
I do understand some of “the past is the past” sentiments, but not in relation to the AFCW money.
The news directors have said they are going to be open. The first thing they must do, ASAP, is clarify the precise destination of this money. Until they do that it is ridiculous, frankly, to expect supporters to just move on.
Yioryos was given an opportunity to address this last night and either inadvertently, or deliberately, misled the audience to downplay the role of the AFCW money in recent seasons.
It’s a huge open wound that needs addressing. It can’t just be brushed under the carpet.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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In my opinion the dirty deed has already taken place,information I have is that John Fenwick and possibly Mark Anderson have already sold out to Jim Page and Bob Reed, so I look forward to the next set of events on the reshuffling of the pack.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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How reliable is that information?
Ksuals
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Fenwick yes,Anderson not 100 percent. Yet.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Well, I am not saying anything should be swept under the carpets. I do understand how gauling this must be to the members of KBH who has been involved in discussions about potential investment in the club. From a purely personal perspective, I might also mention that when I was chair of the supporters club, I was acting with a set of information which was (the most positive way I can put it was incomplete!).. Hence, I was very much less than impressed to hear of this after all this time. However, I do personally still feel that the priority has to be figuring out the best way forward for the future.
Edited by John Bangs at 14:24:31 on 18th February 2024
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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The "best way forward for the future" is to learn from the mistakes of the past.
The Chairman can insult me in a meeting where I'm not present to defend myself, but he cannot silence me on here.
The Board of Directors of Kingstonian FC, including Yioryos Vasilaras, lied to the supporters for five years.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Make they ten, ever since they were building the hype for leaving Kings meadow.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I would say we were misled rather than explicitly lied to - which doesn’t make it okay. However, simply stating and restating grievances won’t get us anywhere.. The fact is that there are clearly new opportunities to discuss issues with the directors and influence what happens.. I think we need to take them at their word and make sure this actually happens.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I think the misled/lied to is a fairly arbitrary distinction John. They've been repeatedly asked what the moeny can be spent on and where it's gone, and not once have they mentioned the playing budget.
To clarify if the 40k season is correct (and I was in the room when Mark Anderson told us, so no reason to doubt it) then the amount we've spent on the playing budget is over 50% MORE than we've spent on ground rent during that time. It's not an incidental figure. It's not a rounding error. It's not something that didn't seem relevant or slipped their mind. It's not something to be lumped in with 'operational costs' - it's by the far the biggest thing that's eroded the AFC Wimbledon money. Who gives a fuck about whether they ever told us a bareface lie, the very fact they've been asked about that money and never mentioned it is a disgrace. The current chairman was part of the board making that decision, and part of public opportunities where it hasn't been mentioned. He's as culpable as anyone. A nice meeting with fans telling people we need to move on and start afresh is just a million miles away from reality while he remain chairman.
Edited by BedfordshireK at 15:14:57 on 18th February 2024
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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It seems like Womble supporters were lied to, as well.
https://twitter.com/KentWomble/status/1758928284438376918
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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So, in fact, this was a decision made jointly by the Kingstonian directors together with The Don’s Trust before Yioryos was a director. He was apparently not of the meetings with KBH. I do not think he made any of the statements complained of. Of course as a director, he does bear some responsibility for what happened once he was appointed and could’ve spoken out about this publicly. This would’ve been difficult to do and might have entailed his resigning..
I’m not suggesting that this absolves him from all criticism, but whether people like it or not, he is the Club chair.. There are new opportunities to engage in active dialogue with the club directors and I believe we should take these up and press for delivery on the promises made yesterday.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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So, in fact, this was a decision made jointly by the Kingstonian directors together with The Don’s Trust before Yioryos was a director.
So only anyone negotiating with the don’s trust are culpable? Nonsense. Budgets are sat annually. That question has been asked plenty of times since Yiorg joined the board. The idea that he can wash his hands of that is for the birds.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
Views: 2297
agree. it's a nonsense.
there may well have been an agreement that £40k could be spent, but not that it should be spent.
it's because we need to move forward that we need to know if we can trust the new chairman. this revelation does nothing to help that.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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He's a (bubble) you can't trust none of them.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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It seems that the money could be spent on playing budgets so there is nothing wrong in that.
It is conceivable that there were good reasons to spend some money on retaining step three status. I think it is only in the last couple of years that the playing budget was evidently cut resulting in last year’s relegation struggle and this year’s collapse.
I think that the club probably did think they could get some land - it was less than two years ago that Anderson was talking up the Lovelace playing fields and before that we know they had looked at Chessington Golf Centre and also hoped to enter into a long term groundshare with Corinthian-Casuals part of which would have seen the blood money spent to improve the facilities.
Of course we now know that none of these aspirations came to pass, and it troubles me that these directors leave at a time where there seems no particular realistic way forward over and above tendering for the athletics track in 2026. However that is not to say that the use of the blood money to fund players and our step three status was not the right decision in the circumstances at the time.
Evidently the new management has decided the club must live within its increasingly meagre means and it won’t draw on the funds for players. That at least means the funds will run down more slowly.
The new management cited a three to five year period for a new ground. Steve Dormer said the realistic prospects will be easily established. Let’s hope that something can happen soon because otherwise we will continue to wither away at someone else’s ground probably at step five or six the way things are going.
Incidentally to those who say the club is playing to be relegated, I wonder if that is strictly true - if by some chance we stayed up, I would expect the club to take a voluntary relegation to step four to control costs like the Not We Police did.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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The new management cited a three to five year period for a new ground. Steve Dormer said the realistic prospects will be easily established. Let’s hope that something can happen soon because otherwise we will continue to wither away at someone else’s ground probably at step five or six the way things are going.
That’s not my understanding of what was said. I think they were saying that if x, y and z all fell into place then in that best case scenario it would take 3-5 years to get through planning / development
Of course we don’t (officially) know the detail of what’s been talked about on potential sites so far but I’m confident we’re gonna get no funding from council or GLA (we’re not yet even in dialogue with the portfolio holder in charge of the 3G strategy for council) , so that £660k is gonna have to do a lot of work….
realistically I’d be very very surprised if we had a new facility in slide five years. I hope to be surprised
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
Views: 2388
As others have said, what matters is the deliberate hiding it from fans, both ours and AFC's. It might be a defensible position to suggest it was important to keep us at step 3 for our continuing relevance, not that I'd personally agree with it. But we should never have squandered such a large percentage of our nest egg without at the very least informing fans.
We won't be 'tendering' for the athletics track, the Council will be looking for someone to run it with other leisure facilities in the RBK and will obviously award the tender to Places or a similar rival with the right experience.
I only mentioned the tender because, depending on the current terms, if we moved in and the track was closed for football however many times a year, Places/RBK may feel this materially affects their current arrangement and want to negotiate compensation one way or another. Whereas if a new tendee signs up knowing Ks will be there it keeps the whole thing cleaner.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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it won’t draw on the funds for players
But that's because they're not allowed to any more! Not because they've realised the errors of their ways!
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
Views: 2243
Whatever, the outcome is the same isn’t it?
If they are not allowed to, presumably that is because the agreement with the Ground Stealers prohibits it now but it does not seem to have stopped it before. How do we know what the agreement says? It has never been put into the public domain.
I don’t conclude spending money on players was wrong in and of itself but I do find it odd that neither Ks or the hypocrites said anything about it. But then I suppose why would either side say anything about it? Looking back at what was said last November one can see the reply of the board was carefully drafted so as not to mention this. It can presumably only have been because the board knew the controversy it would cause. After all there is a difference between saying “we have our new site (which I am sure they thought possible until recently) and we spent money on players” and “we have no new site despite seven years elapsing and we have spent 200k on players”.
If they had not supported the playing budget, we would have been relegated ages ago and from what I have seen of step four could well have been beneath that now.
What I would love to know is what is the update on the “discussions with two leaseholders in potentially building a new stadium on their land within the Royal Borough of Kingston.” (November 2023)
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
Views: 2263
That seems fair comment Jon and so it perhaps follows that we need to judge the new group of directors on what they do rather than simply on what they said yesterday.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
Views: 2238
I think we can also judge them on what they said yesterday.
If ~50% of the AFC money has gone on playing budget, rather than 10% as indicated by the Chairman last night, that's a big red flag for the start of the new era of openness and transparency.
Edited by irishk at 17:01:37 on 18th February 2024
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Either the Chairman's maths is poor (which would be worrying enough) or he's continuing to dissemble, mislead, and bullshit the supporters.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I take your point John but I do think we need clarity here.
There have been people who were willing to invest into Ks in various ways - through sponsorship, for example - and the previous board (which is not entirely different from the current board) have been dreadful at managing those relationships, attracting investment in general, and attracting crowds which brings in gate money.
If that complacency has been fuelled in any way by a reliance on dipping into the Wombles money for the playing budget then it will affect people's view of things going forward.
I thought Yioryos largely acquitted himself well yesterday and said many of the right things but I'm unconvinced his answer to my specific question - about what % of the 'lost' Wombles money has been spent on the playing budget - are correct.
I don't think it's worth going over all the board's old mistakes in terms of the football side of things, and *to a certain extent* Lovelace and other failed ground ventures at this point in time, but we need clarity on this. I strongly feel that morally that was not the board's money to spend on football-related ventures, and if that was the case then they should have been clear about it.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I’ve said elsewhere that the situation is very like Sunak and Johnson
Sunak at the table and a key member of the government when all the terrible decisions were made. the best of the party were booted out or gave up. then Sunak becomes PM and is like “those decisions were nothing to do with me”
at the time there felt some sort of positivity that something might change and Sunak might be significantly better.
I hope this is where the similarity ends and the new chairman doesnt go a comparable route Sunak’s government, which is depressingly as bad
Edited by jon tolley at 15:37:19 on 18th February 2024
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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There does seem to be a genuinely different approach to engagement; and let’s hope it’s for real - my feeling is that it probably is.
There are lots of challenges for the new owners, but must say I felt much more positive after the meeting than before.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Come on guys tonight went well
Whatever happens ie changes etc still not good enough
As I said let's all work together and move forward it is the only option..
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I am not being negative - I am saying let’s move forward with a supporters trust to represent supporters’ interests and if is a shareholding on the table, let’s take it off the table.
I agree with you Foley. The new management has at least made an effort to reach out and draw a line under the past. Many of the people responsible for managing the club over that period are now bowing out.
I don’t see much in moaning about the use of the blood money. A chunk has been spent. It all seems to have been legitimately spent. Presumably the alternative would have been to slice the playing budget years ago. I agreed with the new board when they said the club must live within its means although I am wondering whether Anderson’s references to new investors means these new people will support the playingf budget at step four.
The new management made it clear that they will run the club and there is no prospect of any fan body taking a majority stake whether it be a trust or KBH.
Personally I would like to see the supporters club and KBH come together and fold into a new trust which can take the shares which are seemingly available.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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They spent the womble money and then lied about it!
The new chairman was part of the board who did that.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I don’t think they lied about it and I gather the club spent the money legitimately. The latter is the key point.
Presumably if they had not done so, we would have ended up with a crap squad far sooner and been relegated far sooner. How else could it realistically be funded otherwise than by way of shareholder loans?
Perhaps that would have been much better for us. We would have been exposed to the harsh realities far sooner and adjusted much earlier to a step four/five existence whilst retaining more of the blood money AFC put aside to assuage their conscience for enabling this to happen in the first place. Let’s be plain - Khosla and AFC Wimbledon are responsible for the mess Ks are in now, and I still find it the height of hypocrisy thst AFC Wimbledon should have it seen differently to this day,
In any event we heard this evening that most of the directors of that board are retiring. Of course we can say they made wrong decisions and the new chairman accepted they made mistakes but I don’t think this focus on using the blood money on supporting the club is going to reduce the toxicity of which Simon Lane spoke z
One has to remember that for some years the club believed it could develop the Lovelace Road site in respect of which the council seems to have led it down the garden path. I bet if Mark Anderson has a regret it is that Lovelace Road turned to dust.
It is entirely possible that when the club left Kingsmeadow it had too reason to think it had identified a site in which case maintaining the standard of the playing squad was a factor.
I also bear in mind the impact of the pandemic which must have affected the finances badly. We heard today that it seriously affects eroded Mr Anderson’s business which is one reason he felt unable to support the club financially in the way he did before
I am satisfied that the new board seem to recognise the need to communicate with fans much better. I am alarmed that so little progress has been made since 2017 although I heard this evening that the tender process with the athletics track is a serious proposition and that is due in 2026. I will be surprised if we find a new ground within that three to five year period but I am willing myself to back the new board to try.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Lovelace School. Lovelace Road is in Surbiton
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Well, that may be so, butI’m not sure of the relevance of this. The school adjacent to the Lovelace playing fields in Chessington is the Lovelace Primary School. This though is ancient history and while we can learn from the mistakes of the past, I think we need to focus on looking forwards.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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As an example of doing things differently from the past, maybe the chairman could clarify the 10% or .50% concern
Ksuals
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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I would certainly agree with that.
From what we were told, in the round it costs 120k a year to run Ks at step three so 40k would be a third.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
Views: 2203
I would say £120k would be a conservative estimate for step 3. I've heatd that the budget for someone like Amersham Town who have their own ground and have thrown loads of money at promotion from step 6, is in excess of £150k.
That's without the cost of a groundshare.
I'm not sure what the deal is for T&M but I know costs of other groundshares. Colliers Wood costs about £9k per season, if you want a nice pitch, and I've heard that Reading City charge about £6.5k per season for a lower quality surface that gets flooded.
Also, if Places get the contract, we might as well forget about the Athletics track. They will seriously Jack up the price and be a pain in the arse to deal with. My tier 3 futsal team hire their venue, and they have repeatedly offered to mark out a new court yet fail to do so and Jack up the prices year on year. Hence we are looking for a new venue. Unless we can somehow convince the council to put a 3g on it then it's dead in the water with them.
I've heard from players that I have worked with this season that the club were paying huge wages with Hayden Bird at the helm. So 40k or even more would not be a surprise.
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Re: Kingstonian FC: an update from KBH
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Fair play
I am just saying we all need to be the same corner and we all want the same thing
But again we all need to look forward as you agreed with and I am sure everyone else will
Hopefully now we are getting somewhere and can all achieve this together
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