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by www.kingstonian.com9/4/2023 18:10Sun Apr 9 18:10:50 2023
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New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 1411
I welcome the new manager’s appointment and he comes with a good CV from Walton & Hersham. Also, his family tie to the club is a good thing. I know Kim has a love of the club.
Where do we go from here? A lot of excited voices seem to think Scott will naturally bring in players that have previously got him promoted at Walton & Hersham. There’s a few problems with that and bringing those players in isn’t as easy as it sounds. It’s not a game of FIFA where you can sign who you like. These players are elsewhere and likely happy. We don’t have a budget to pay money or outbid other clubs to secure a player. I’m unsure why people think players will just flock to us now. When Jose Mourinho went to Real Madrid there wasn’t a mass exodus from Chelsea, no matter how much John Terry, Lampard et al loved Jose. Apart from previously having worked with the new manager, what attracts Kingstonian to potential players?
This brings me on to the youth. Our under 18s Isthmian League team finished second behind a very strong Met Police team. Our Combined Counties League team are currently top with three matches to go. They play second placed Reading City tonight (at Raynes Park Vale, 19:45 kick off, for anyone wishing to attend) and if Ks win we are 5 points clear of them with 2 games to go. Currently unbeaten, they are also in the cup final next week vs Raynes Park Vale at CB Hounslow FC. So, you can see, two very strong u18s sides. Simon Lane said they weren’t ready for the first team. Tutu was regularly using 5 of them. All looked comfortable when playing in the first team. They have been coached well by Nigel James and his team of coaches. We know that previous youth products from Nigel James have been quality additions to Ks and then been sold to pro clubs for good money. The contract we have with Nigel James Elite Academy is quite likely the biggest asset Kingstonian Football Club have, and we really don’t have many assets at all. Youth products won’t cost as much in the weekly wages as older, established players.
So, I wonder what are Scott Harris’ thoughts on this? We really need some improvement in the first team but this should be based around the development of youth, not at the expense of. One of the first thing Scott Harris should do as new manager is to get Nigel James on the blower and work together for the common goal.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 515
I really hope we can bring through youth players for various reasons and agree that it's probably our only strength right now but:
(a) we've already signed six ex-Walton lads so the "It’s not a game of FIFA where you can sign who you like. These players are elsewhere and likely happy" has aged badly in a week
(b) the Mourinho comparison is a bit daft - those players were on multi-year contracts worth tens of millions and a move to another country is a big deal. Non-league players are usually out of contact and they'd be moving a 20min drive down the road. Besides, post-Chelsea Mourinho had most of the season off, and then managed Inter for two years before he went to Real, so not a good comparison anyway.
I find just signing most of the manager's previous side a bit tinpot and I don't really know how we have the budget for it, but it worked pretty well under Hayden and if the new lads want to join their old manager having already worked under him, that strikes me as a good thing.
Particularly pleased by the return of Mitchall Gough who always struck me as a good defender and a nice lad.
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6 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 574
I made a few points, but that but didn’t age well at all 😂😂
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 504
Think a lot have connections matt
Alex Kelly was under Tommy Williams I do believe
Joe hicks under dowse I am sure
Mitch under Dynan
Maybe they will play for less as a more local league if they are local and also as you say play for the manager.
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1 person
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 868
Let's hope Scott has a bit more backbone than his father, I remember him leaving after four weeks when Jim Cochrane took over because the wages were being paid differently.
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7 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 850
That's very harsh and strong words.
Who are you ? Why don't you say your real name
Backbone you joker
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3 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 728
Perhaps you could do with some, and your real name.
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3 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 747
I don't hide behind a name.
Majority of people on here dont. but there is a few that do.
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4 people 1 person
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 710
Err......that is his real name.
COME ON YOU Ks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Newt
Edited by newt1 at 11:18:15 on 5th May 2024
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1 person 1 person
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 689
Time will tell.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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More front than Preston mate
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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What a silly comment! Should be welcoming a good, young manager instead of taking a dig at someone who worked for the club under extremely difficult circumstances. Anyway, pretty sure that Kim resigned around September 2004 and Jim didn't take over until January 2005?
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5 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 870
As I work in non-league (admittedly two steps below) I can answer some of these questions. Would players go just because of the manager? 100%. I know that if me and my gaffer changed clubs we could bring a good chunk of players with us (at least half) and have seen this at other clubs in our league and the division above this season. Also, this is someone universally respected, and is talked about with respect by players in our dressing room, who've never played under him, so he is a name that people want to work with.
Most players at step 4 and below won't get a great deal of money, so will compromise for the right opportunity and environment. Also, they might be local which is also another draw.
Would players join up for less money for the right project? Definitely, especially if with a group and coaching staff that you work well with. Other draws could be playing style, the club name, etc. Also most of these players won't be on a long term contract so won't require a fee. Some of the players might come as a package and prefer playing with certain others (not uncommon at my level). The fact is that if the players buy into you and what you are doing, they will be interested in coming with you.
Regarding, the youth set up, while it is an asset, and may well provide a couple of prospects that could be developed into first teamers, the gap is vast. My club has a youth team in the CCL u18 league, and none of them are currently even close to playing in our reserves at step 7, let alone our first team. We have had players who have been in U23 set ups at clubs like Bromley, Wealdstone and Sutton, and they weren't good enough, so while it is a great thing to have it isn't a magic wand that can be relied upon.
Also, viewing a player is somewhat subjective, our chairman often picks a player out a player for praise that we think has struggled or singled a player out for criticism that we think has been vital.
This appointment definitely is cause for optimism so embrace it.
Edited by Lesmundo at 23:19:09 on 3rd May 2024
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6 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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All this is true and we've benefited from it twice before, with both Dowse and Hayden Bird immediately bringing in a lot of their former players who did a good job for us. They're obviously a solid group who have had a lot of success together; we're local to them and, despite everything going on, we'll be one of the biggest names in that league next season.
Nonetheless they're a group that's been playing at step 3 and even if we aren't throwing silly money at them it's hard to believe that they'd collectively accept playing for much below a fair market value. And nor should they - life is hard for most people financially at the moment.
So while my heart is excited at the prospect of watching a good team with a bit of an identity again, my head thinks people are right to question how sustainable this is. It's right that people are questioning a) whether we can afford this and b) why now?
Only two weeks ago, Yioryos said, "The money was not there for us to keep spending what we were spending, it just wasn't sustainable." And that was referring to a budget with which we came bottom of the league with! There's now a further £40k hole in that budget that we need to plug even to be back at square 1.
John Bangs claimed we'll have a 'decent budget' and that money is being raised through support from several individuals and a far more active approach to seeking sponsorship. This frankly doesn't sound very concrete and is based on what we're seeking not what's in our bank account. So I worry that the money will run out mid-season and we'll either have to cut the budget or get the begging bowl out.
Even if this extra money is available, is it really the right time to go for promotion?
It's at best ambiguous whether we'd even be allowed to get promoted, with different people posting different rumours about RPV but nothing mentioned on the subject in Yioryos' 3,000 word state of the nation address. But he did say, "The level of playing budgets that are now required to compete at Step 3 are just not financially sustainable given our current position as a club" so if we went up would we not go straight back down again? Or risk getting into the sort of debt he says Margate are in?
So yes, it looks like we're putting a good team together and I'm sure we'll enjoy watching them play and winning some games. But that was basically what we did under Dowse and Tommy, enjoying ten years of good football while the board made no progress in addressing the long-term problems the club faced. We can't take our eye off the ball again however much we enjoy the team Scott's putting together.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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Quite a lot has been said about Yioryos’ recent statement but one aspect that has attracted surprisingly little attention was his saying that the Club has engaged the services of an “ Architect, Assisted Funding Consultant and finally our chosen Project Manager”. To my mind, I personally thought that this was the most significant part of his statement.
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4 people 5 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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Can the club afford them ?.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 591
Yes
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1 person
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 617
Thanks for keeping us updated John Bangs!! Chairman obviously very busy preparing for business end of the season and building the new ground so won't have time to answer all the questions on here. It's great to have our man on the inside keep us posted!
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8 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 593
Has anyone ever met Yior...., sorry I mean "OptimisticK"? It's funny how they've only been around since April last year. And they do love our chairman, don't they? I wonder who it could possibly be?
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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All I'm saying is has anyone seen Yiorgas and OptimisticK in the same room together?
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No subject
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No text
Edited by John Bangs at 22:32:06 on 5th May 2024
Edited by John Bangs at 23:17:26 on 5th May 2024
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 712
one aspect that has attracted surprisingly little attention
Who would ever have thought that threatening to ban supporters might distract from the more positive messages he was trying to convey?
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 702
I totally agree John that ANYTHING the directors do to pursue a new ground for Kingstonian is more important than signing new players.
However there are a couple of really big concerns that I have with this supposed step forward.
Firstly, I don’t think we have the knowledge and competence among the current directors to make this happen. I’ll very happily be proven wrong, but so far they haven’t managed to run a small non league football club sensibly, let alone conclude a huge property deal with multiple tricky stakeholders and millions of £ involved.
Secondly, I have seen the initial versions of these plans with my own eyes. They were laughable. It may very well be that they’ve come on a hell of a long way in the last couple of months. It may also very well be that Mark Anderson wasn’t showing me his full hand at the meeting (and this is probable, given he hosted that meeting with a clear agenda). But either way, the “plans” were so basic they could have been put together by a kid…at that point.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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Well, I have only heard at secondhand about with your meeting with Mark. However, I think the points you are making are in essence why the football club has engaged the specialist help described in Yioryos’ statement.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 678
It will be a cold day in hell when Anderson shows his full hand.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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Well said and perfectly valid concerns to go with the excitement
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 888
A lot of excited voices seem to think Scott will naturally bring in players that have previously got him promoted at Walton & Hersham. There’s a few problems with that and bringing those players in isn’t as easy as it sounds. It’s not a game of FIFA where you can sign who you like.
Turns out Harris seems to be playing FIFA…
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1 person
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 870
It does. We seem to be doing ok for a team with no money and very little income
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 855
Yes Damo, just last week the board via chairman Lord Yiorg are pleading poverty.
This week we are bringing in players galore from the league above the one we are entering.
Yes I’m really happy with the new manager, new signings etc. The question on every ks fans lips; Where’s the money coming from?
Maybe 1 of the 3 board members can put out a statement which doesn’t take 8 weeks to write. Or maybe the board’s new PR guru can let us know!
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5 people 3 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 858
Maybe these guys are joining not because of money but they enjoy playing football together, they are loyal to Scott Harris whom they admire and because they are a close knit group of friends?
The days of endless defeats are over. No way are players of this quality going to lose and lose and lose at step four,
Our crowds will increase. Better times ahead.
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5 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 871
They may also enjoy less pressure league wise.
Personally I haven't enjoyed witnessing certain fans that can tell me what board members arseholes smell like pre warning fans of announcements prior to them being made.
Why have certain fans been given information before other fans. Can they not treat all fans with the same level of respect as things in my opinion have been deliberately leaked.
------------------------------------
It's the Organs or the Craic, you can only serve one master
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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Could the answer be that these people are friends with members of the board or at any rate maintained constructive relationships rather than descend to the sort of toxic abuse Yioryos called out even going so far as to threaten to issue bans?
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3 people 4 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 778
I know little about the group but it seems like they’re tight and want to play together / for Scott
what was the reason it ended surprisingly early at Walton and is that something that could happen with Kingstonian??
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 748
I heard a rumour WH were packing up.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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That’s untrue. There has been a change in direction. An American called Corey invested in the club and four of the young owners bowed out because they did not have cash to put in. Scanella and Tucker remain. The club is now linked with Corey’s academy in Florida named WH America Bulls! The idea is presumably for this academy to provide players for W&H.
It seems probable that Corey interfered on then playing side and Scott did not like that. Scott’s deputy Billy Rowley is now the manager.
The players who are coming to Ks are the core of the side which won promotion from step four. Some of them struggled at sue three, some of them did well. W&H finished seventh.
Tellingly W&H took only 30 points off Harris’s last 25 games and it became more of a struggle. Simon was often a substitute.W&H conceded too many goals with Hicks and Gough at centre back
W&H face a big rebuild now and there is a lot of unhappiness at the involvement of the American investor, his apparent influence, about Scott leaving and the departure of players who were heroes of the promotion years. There is of course concern for the future but the club is in a good position - if it can sign enough players to compete at step three for a second season.
Ks are getting a very good experienced manager and the main members of his successful team. These people all want to play with each other, they are all good friends and I think that is the most important factor. They are not mercenaries.
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5 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 649
Very pleased to hear that wish them luck. Is there an American involved at RPV does anybody know?
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 863
Spot on. I think that is exactly what we are seeing unfold. If he had stuck it out Scott could easily have looked for a step 2 club. Instead he chose ties of community and an opportunity to keep what he had built together.
Many of the Walton players could earn more if willing to disperse and chase the highest wage packet. Instead they are choosing loyalty and friendship over money. I think we are in the process of recruiting a special group of people.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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A story of friendship, loyalty and the famous Kingstonian hoops. What's not to love!!!
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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Maybe maybe maybe, blah blah blah.
Meanwhile in the real world, I understand Scott pushed back until he had guarantees on the playing budget.
I wonder why that recent statement from the chairman advised there would be no further comment on the club finances.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 749
Given most Ks fan have absolutely no trust in the Board and there is zero transparency around the Club finances all we can do is hope and pray this all works out ok. Sadly I have seen this sort of situation many times before with a number of non-league clubs. The Board is under pressure from the fans and feel they have to do something. They bring in a new manager who says I will only join if you give me a budget of £X and allow me to sign a load of players I have worked with before. The Board don’t really want to pay £X or believe that the Club can really afford it, but feel pressured into doing so. They agree to the new manager’s terms and mortgage the future of the Club. If things work out and succes follows, great. But if success doesn’t quickly follow the fall from grace can be swift and leave a big expensive financial mess behind to be cleaned up.
Ks had average crowds of around 200 last season and didn’t own their own ground. W&H had average crowds of around 600 and their own ground. I’m not up-to-date with Step 4 wages but I have detailed knowledge of a Club who finished outside the play offs this season but in the top half at step three and they pay their contracted players an average wage of £400-500 p/w and their top earners (a couple of strikers) were on £700-800 p/w. Structures vary and sometime it can be £500 plus win and goal bonuses to take it up to a higher figure (this also offers the Club some protection if the player is injured as the win and goal bonuses won’t kick in). A number of players at step 3 nowadays even have agents but it is still true that players are often loyal to a manager and fellow players who are their mates and you will still see them moving to a new club to follow the manager. However, few players at step 3/4 are willing to take much if any wage cut when they do. £50 a week but a higher win bonus, maybe. But from my decades in non-league I find it very, very hard to believe that all these ex W&H players are moving to the Ks and taking a substantial wage cut. If it was as easy as recruiting a manager from the level above and getting him to sign all his ex players on half their previous wage, every non-league club would follow that model.
We will almost certainly never find out what is really going on. And if we do it will only be after everything has gone pear shaped. Things may be ok and work out, but they may not. Let’s wait and see how next season unfolds.
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6 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 630
Good article,I fear you will not see a result until all the AFC money has gone,these people do not have the club at heart,only their own egos.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 1076
I think this is excellent. Our Youth teams are a really strong asset to the Club and we need to strengthen our relationship with Nigel James.
Sorry to quibble - next week's CCL Cup Final, is it being played at RPV (as per social media and the club's website) or Hounslow?
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3 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 1043
The final has been recently been moved to Raynes Park Vale with the approval of the combine counties league.
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2 people
Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
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Thanks John. I was originally to.d CB Hounslow and was just having this conversation with a friend of mine who is a Raynes Park supporter
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 1069
The core of Scott’s team left when he did so they are not happily elsewhere at all. Quite the contrary it is likely they would follow him and form an effective core for a step four team. They include Eddie Simon who scored 40 goals last season at step four.
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Re: New Manager / What it means for the youth?
Views: 1023
If they aren’t happy, then we could make a move. But, what about Ks would attract them when we won’t be able to afford the wages they are used to?
Also, Eddie Simon would be an obvious improvement, if he’d want to come to us. But we can’t just bring in a whole new team at the expense of our youth products.
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